"Tight and loose cultures"

Diskutera sociologi, historia, religionsvetenskap, ekonomi, språk, statsvetenskap o.s.v. ur ett vetenskapligt perspektiv.
Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

"Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Nemesis » fre 15 jan 2021, 23:03

Lyssnade nyligen på ett podcastavsnitt om kulturer och hur de kan beskrivas som antingen "tight" eller "loose", även fast det finns element av bägge inom samtliga kulturer, och det varierar även beroende på sammanhang.

Kulturer som är "tighta" har starka sociala normer och låg tolerans för avvikelse, medan kulturer som är "loose" har svaga sociala normer och är väldigt tillåtande.

Samhällen med "tighta" kulturer har ofta ordning, övervakning och låg brottslighet. Jämfört med "loose" kulturer präglas de av likriktning, folks klädstilar är mer lika varandra, folk har ofta mer självkontroll och är därför ofta mindre skuldsatta, alkoholism och övervikt är inte lika vanligt. Detta eftersom att folk oftare följer regler och därmed oftare kontrollerar sina impulser. Men de kan brista i kreativitet och bli mer etnocentriska.

Samhällen med "loose" kulturer är mer toleranta mot folk av olika etniciteter och religioner, mer öppna för förändring, men har också högre brottslighet och högre skuldsättning, och mer alkoholism och övervikt.

Exempel på länder med "tighta" kulturer är Tyskland, Österrike, Japan och Singapore. Exempel på länder med "loose" kulturer är Nya Zeeland, Nederländerna, Brasilien och Italien.

När jag lyssnade funderade jag på var Sverige passar in. Min gissning är att Sverige, och övriga Norden (möjligen Danmark halvt undantaget), tillhör de "tighta" kulturerna. Vad tror ni?
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » mån 18 jan 2021, 00:30

It's a very interesting discussion, but I think that just two dimensions, tight and loose, are too few. I have spent a lot of time in both Germany (West when that was still an important distinction) and Cuba, and I have often been astonished by how a behaviour that is considered self-evident and natural in one culture is found to be outrageous and offensive in another. I have found it pretty easy to adapt to most of them - and often downright liberating on a personal level.

Danes tend to find Swedes rather stiff and sometimes a little arrogant, and they like to think of themselves as relaxed, jovial and looking for practical solutions instead of sticking to rules that are not expedient. However, the differences between individual members of the two populations are obviously much bigger than the differences between what might be considered stereotypical Swedes and Danes.

Much the same way that I have a hard time imagining a pompous ass like Trump ever gaining popularity in any Scandinavian country, I can't imagine somebody like Tegnell being idolized in Denmark - in spite of his casual dress style.
(Which reminds me: I don't think Danes in general worry as much as Swedes about being stiliga. And again: I don't think all Swedes do, and I don't think all Danes don't. :smile2: )

Användarvisningsbild
Procentaren
Inlägg: 1440
Blev medlem: sön 30 dec 2007, 11:54
Ort: Skåne

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Procentaren » tis 19 jan 2021, 09:06

Sverige är ett av de minst religiösa länderna i världen.
Sociala normer grundar sig ofta på religion. Så i det avseendet får väl Sverige anses hamna i gruppen "loose".

Användarvisningsbild
Johannes
Inlägg: 4516
Blev medlem: tis 30 nov 2004, 14:31

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Johannes » tis 19 jan 2021, 10:17

Ärligt talat tycker jag det inte verkar stämma över huvud taget.

Italien pekas ut som "loose", men hushållen i Italien är bland de lägst skuldsatta i EU, alkoholism och övervikt är under EU-snittet, och min erfarenhet efter att ha bott där är att det finns en ganska strikt social kontroll över hur man klär sig.

Alkoholkonsumtionen i Tyskland är bland de högsta i Västeuropa.

Tyskland hade 76 mord/100 000 invånare 2018, Italien hade 57.

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Nemesis » tis 19 jan 2021, 21:40

Procentaren skrev:
tis 19 jan 2021, 09:06
Sverige är ett av de minst religiösa länderna i världen.
Sociala normer grundar sig ofta på religion. Så i det avseendet får väl Sverige anses hamna i gruppen "loose".
Detta behöver inte vara en faktor av religion. Japan och Kina räknas som "tight", de är inte speciellt religiösa. Brasilien räknades som "loose", de är väldigt religiösa.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Nemesis » tis 19 jan 2021, 21:51

Johannes skrev:
tis 19 jan 2021, 10:17
Ärligt talat tycker jag det inte verkar stämma över huvud taget.

Italien pekas ut som "loose", men hushållen i Italien är bland de lägst skuldsatta i EU, alkoholism och övervikt är under EU-snittet, och min erfarenhet efter att ha bott där är att det finns en ganska strikt social kontroll över hur man klär sig.

Alkoholkonsumtionen i Tyskland är bland de högsta i Västeuropa.

Tyskland hade 76 mord/100 000 invånare 2018, Italien hade 57.
Det förvånar mig om det är fler mord per capita i Tyskland än i Italien. I åtminstone södra Italien finns ju maffiaproblematiken. Italien är iaf betydligt mer korrupt än Tyskland.

Lite förvånande om italienska hushåll har så bra ekonomi, givet att landet som helhet är rejält skuldsatt.

Alkoholkonsumtion betyder inte nödvändigtvis alkoholism, även om det gissningsvis finns ett samband.

Men något som även jag tänkte på när jag lyssnade var att Nya Zeeland, som beskrevs som "loose", har väldigt lite brottslighet, och är ett av världens minst korrupta länder.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » ons 20 jan 2021, 00:48

Hmmm! Many of her ideas seem to be based on nothing but confirmation bias. I can see why she would consider Taiwan to be the typical example of a tight society, but I don't think this illustration makes sense at all:
Understanding where cultural differences come from also helps to understand very puzzling behavior.
Take the fact that if you are caught importing gum into Singapore you may face a fine of up to $100,000 and/or jail time of up to two years. Many Americans would be very puzzled by this behavior. Why can’t they bring in something as innocuous as gum!? But the country’s extreme population density suggests why this ban makes sense. During the 1980s, city workers struggled to keep up with cleaning chewing gum waste, which became a public crisis. The sticky wads gummed up mailboxes and elevator buttons, and even jammed apartment keyholes and the sensors on subway system doors, causing frequent malfunctions. In a place with so many mouths per square mile, the solution was simple: get rid of the temptation.
Tight and Loose Cultures: A Conversation with Michele Gelfand (Behavioral Scientist, Jan. 17, 2019)
A strict attitude to the problem of gum makes sense if it causes the problems she mentions, but I can't see how most of the gum-related problems she mentions could be due to "the country's extreme population density."
City workers struggling to keep up with cleaning chewing gum, OK, I can see that: More people = more chewing gum.
But more people ≠ more gummed-up mailboxes, elevator buttons and apartment keyholes. There can't possibly be so many people and so much gum that they simply can't find anywhere else to put the discarded gum. Using it to gum up mailboxes, elevator buttons and keyholes is an act of deliberate sabotage, and I don't see why fining those acts specifically wouldn't be as effective as fining bringing gum into the country. I am pretty sure that there are laws against that in all countries already: property damage.

I have a similar problem when she uses Trump land as another example of tight cultures even though I find the parallels between American Trump culture and Swedish Tegnell culture during the pandemic fascinating: the personality cult and the dismissive attitude to wearing face masks, with the latter being proof positive of belonging to the cult. I read an article by a foreigner (a German, I think) describing being ostracized for wearing a face mask in Sweden, and today in an article about the riot in Washington last week, wearing a face mask was seen as an obvious sign of not belonging to the group of insurrectionists. It becomes even more fascinating when you consider political attitudes: Sverigedemokraterna recommending face masks in spite of their admiration for Trump.

Användarvisningsbild
Johannes
Inlägg: 4516
Blev medlem: tis 30 nov 2004, 14:31

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Johannes » ons 20 jan 2021, 14:27

dann skrev:
ons 20 jan 2021, 00:48
I have a similar problem when she uses Trump land as another example of tight cultures even though I find the parallels between American Trump culture and Swedish Tegnell culture during the pandemic fascinating: the personality cult and the dismissive attitude to wearing face masks, with the latter being proof positive of belonging to the cult. I read an article by a foreigner (a German, I think) describing being ostracized for wearing a face mask in Sweden, and today in an article about the riot in Washington last week, wearing a face mask was seen as an obvious sign of not belonging to the group of insurrectionists. It becomes even more fascinating when you consider political attitudes: Sverigedemokraterna recommending face masks in spite of their admiration for Trump.
Utmaning till dann: försök skriva ett inlägg i någon tråd på forumet utan hänvisning till Tegnell. Jag vet att det är svårt.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » ons 20 jan 2021, 22:00

Johannes skrev:
ons 20 jan 2021, 14:27
Utmaning till dann: försök skriva ett inlägg i någon tråd på forumet utan hänvisning till Tegnell. Jag vet att det är svårt.
The OP raises the following question:
Nemesis skrev:
fre 15 jan 2021, 23:03
När jag lyssnade funderade jag på var Sverige passar in. Min gissning är att Sverige, och övriga Norden (möjligen Danmark halvt undantaget), tillhör de "tighta" kulturerna. Vad tror ni?
A reference to Anders Tegnell is very obvious in this context. So far, your only contribution to the thread has no reference to Sweden at all, so why don't you simple stay out of the discussion if a reference to Sweden's främsta coronaguru pains you so much?
Senast redigerad av 1 dann, redigerad totalt 0 gånger.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » ons 20 jan 2021, 22:14

Nemesis skrev:
tis 19 jan 2021, 21:40
Detta behöver inte vara en faktor av religion. Japan och Kina räknas som "tight", de är inte speciellt religiösa. Brasilien räknades som "loose", de är väldigt religiösa.
Cubans are very religious, too. Some religions can be considered to be much more loose than others, I guess.
Protestant Christianity is pretty (up)tight, probably more so in its Northern European versions. Santería or Candomblé, not so much.

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » tor 21 jan 2021, 16:29

This article is interesting. Notice the date! It is not about Sweden's pandemic strategy, and yet ...
Political scientist Olof Petersson says one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm: in the Swedish model, authority consults widely, but is obeyed when it reaches a decision. There is always an elite consensus at the apex of Swedish society, and at any given time a very narrow range of acceptable views, but these can suddenly change, as did attitudes to the old welfare state after an economic crisis in the 1990s, or attitudes to refugees in 2015. (...)
The drawback of all authoritarian systems is that the people at the top will hear only what they want to, and gradually lose touch with reality.
Sweden’s far right has flourished because the elite lost touch with the people (Guardian, Aug. 26, 2018)]
It is a very precise prediction of recent events, isn't it? Except for the sudden change, which may still happen.
Many Norwegians shake their heads in disbelief at their neighbour Sweden’s approach to the coronavirus. But Sweden’s population greatly supports the country's corona experts, a recent study suggests.
(...)
The Swedes already have very high confidence in both politicians and the authorities, compared to other countries.
When there is a crisis, people support the authorities. We’ve also seen this in previous crises. Eventually, as people begin to see how things will develop and end, then they can be more critical, and their trust may also be weakened,” she says.
Swedes trust their experts in the coronavirus crisis (Science Norway, April 6, 2020)
The weakening of trust is already apparent.

I wrote about authoritarian thinking in Sweden in a post on April 16, 2020, in the ISF thread about the Swedish pandemic strategy.

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Nemesis » tor 21 jan 2021, 19:51

dann skrev:
tor 21 jan 2021, 16:29
This article is interesting. Notice the date! It is not about Sweden's pandemic strategy, and yet ...
Political scientist Olof Petersson says one of the distinctive features of Swedish political culture is that it is both more authoritarian and more democratic than the European norm: in the Swedish model, authority consults widely, but is obeyed when it reaches a decision. There is always an elite consensus at the apex of Swedish society, and at any given time a very narrow range of acceptable views, but these can suddenly change, as did attitudes to the old welfare state after an economic crisis in the 1990s, or attitudes to refugees in 2015. (...)
The drawback of all authoritarian systems is that the people at the top will hear only what they want to, and gradually lose touch with reality.
Sweden’s far right has flourished because the elite lost touch with the people (Guardian, Aug. 26, 2018)]
It is a very precise prediction of recent events, isn't it? Except for the sudden change, which may still happen.
Many Norwegians shake their heads in disbelief at their neighbour Sweden’s approach to the coronavirus. But Sweden’s population greatly supports the country's corona experts, a recent study suggests.
(...)
The Swedes already have very high confidence in both politicians and the authorities, compared to other countries.
When there is a crisis, people support the authorities. We’ve also seen this in previous crises. Eventually, as people begin to see how things will develop and end, then they can be more critical, and their trust may also be weakened,” she says.
Swedes trust their experts in the coronavirus crisis (Science Norway, April 6, 2020)
The weakening of trust is already apparent.

I wrote about authoritarian thinking in Sweden in a post on April 16, 2020, in the ISF thread about the Swedish pandemic strategy.
Varför svenskar överlag reagerar som de gör på Sveriges coronastrategi är ett ämne som är distinkt från denna tråd och från tråden om evidensbaserade coronaåtgärder. Detta ämne skulle förtjäna en egen tråd, förslagsvis under "Samhällsvetenskap och humaniora". Jag har själv en del tankar om detta. Om du startar en sådan tråd så kan ämnet diskuteras där. :)
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » tor 21 jan 2021, 20:12

I first noticed what I then thought of as a peculiar Swedish kind of nationalism back in the early 1980s. I had ample opportunity to listen in on conversations between all kinds of nationalities on the train when I visited my German girlfriend. What I have observed and read since then was only confirmed by the way Swedes responded to the pandemic strategy.

Don't you think that the Norwegian article about Sweden's pandemic response perfectly illustrates what Olaf Peterson was quoted as saying one-and-a-half years before the pandemic?

Nemesis
Inlägg: 2277
Blev medlem: tor 12 okt 2006, 22:04
Ort: Stockholm

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av Nemesis » tor 21 jan 2021, 20:21

I korthet kan man väl säga att svenskar generellt har svårt att föreställa sig att svenska myndigheter i stora drag inte fattar de bästa besluten. När då Covid-strategin blev ett totalt fiasko så har många därför svårt att tänka sig att det skulle bero på att svenska myndigheter fattade felaktiga beslut. Det är därför vi ser dessa special pleading-förklaringar.
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

dann
Inlägg: 1070
Blev medlem: sön 24 maj 2020, 17:18

Re: "Tight and loose cultures"

Inlägg av dann » tor 21 jan 2021, 20:53

But the question is why it is so difficult for them to shake this belief.
I was raised by a psychopathic parent, so I know from personal experience how comforting it is to believe that somebody who has power over you means well even when reality seems to show the opposite. It is very difficult for an outsider to imagine how hard it is to break through the rigidity of thinking that is required to maintain the delusion.
Are Swedish children rewarded for thinking that the state is always good and means well?
Is critical thinking about the authorities actively discouraged?

Skriv svar