"Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

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dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Wed 29 Sep 2021, 10:40

The following message to "all (!) employees" is exactly what you should do if you want an outbreak of mass hysteria to spread:
Pentagon urges all employees to report symptoms of ‘Havana syndrome’
At the same time, skeptics are removed from their posts by the State Department and CIA director Burns it they express doubt about the idea that any attack has taken place, and the lack of weapons, culprits and even detected rays of any kind makes it unlikely that it has:
Diplomat Leading Havana Syndrome Response Out After Angering Sufferers With 'Mass Hysteria' Comments
CIA station chief in Vienna recalled amid criticism of management and handling of mysterious ‘Havana Syndrome’ cases
The outcome is what you would expect when you consider that the most common symptoms of mass psychogenic illness coincide with the most common symptoms of the alleged syndrome:
Headache
Dizziness or light-headedness
Nausea
Mass psychogenic illness: Common symptoms (Wikipedia)
Who hasn't had a headache, been nauseated or felt dizzy or light-headed? How many in the past week or two?
They have actually managed to turn the 'Havana Syndrome' into a pandemic. I am a little disappointed that we haven't had any Scandinavian cases yet.

The Canadians did the opposite of this, which seems to have put a lid on it.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Thu 30 Sep 2021, 09:08

Serbia has now been added to the list of countries with alleged 'attacks' on CIA agents.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sun 03 Oct 2021, 10:45

Made public recently:
Interview with skeptic Robert Bartholomew, expert on mass psychogenic illness (ISF from ABC News, Sep 26, 2021).

Article by Robert Baloh, emeritus professor of neurology: Havana syndrome fits the pattern of psychosomatic illness – but that doesn’t mean the symptoms aren’t real (Deccan Herald, Oct 1, 2021).
Bartholomew and Baloh are the authors of the only book about 'Havana Syndrome': Havana Syndrome: Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria (GoodReads)

And then there was this article from BuzzFeed News: A Declassified State Department Report Says Microwaves Didn't Cause "Havana Syndrome" (Sep 30, 2021), which revealed that the State Department knew as early as November 2018 that there were no microwave attacks and that the most likely explanation for the 'syndrome' is mass psychogenic illness. The JASON group even had access to eight recordings of the 'sonic-attack' sounds and determined that they were from crickets long before independent researchers reached the same conclusion based on only one recording.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sun 10 Oct 2021, 06:00

Brand new Canadian article about the 'Havana Syndrome'. It is obvious that it was written by a skeptic, Jonathan Jarry, an excellent science communicator:
Diplomats in Cuba fell ill. Some suspected a secret weapon. Five years later, a more benign explanation remains.
Havana Syndrome or a Case for Eliminating the Implausible (McGill University, Office for Science and Society - Separating Sense from Nonsense, Oct 9, 2021)

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Tue 12 Oct 2021, 07:26

New article by Robert Bartholomew:
Have foreign agents been committing nefarious deeds, targeting dozens of American and Canadian diplomats and their families with an energy weapon, or is Havana Syndrome a social panic aided by sensational journalism, dubious science, and social media conspiracy theories? The contents of a U.S. Government investigation into “Havana Syndrome” released under the Freedom of Information Act, concluded that mass psychogenic illness likely played a major role.
This story is a good example of what can happen when politics is mixed with science.
Havana Syndrome Hysteria and the Great Wild Goose Chase (Skeptic, Oct 9, 2021)
Seven comments so far!

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sun 17 Oct 2021, 17:11

Suzanne O'Sullivan: The Sleeping Beauties: And Other Stories of Mystery Illness (2021)

I haven't read this book yet, but it looks interesting, in particular in a Swedish context, since it combines the mass hysteria of the 'Havana Syndrome' with the Swedish concept uppgivenhetssyndrom, "... using as its starting point a particular case of more than 400 migrant children in Sweden who have fallen into a "waking coma".

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:34

Robert Bartholomew: Hysteriet omkring ‘Havana-syndromet’ og den store afledningsmanøvre (Dansk Skeptica, Oct 31, 2021)

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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Mon 01 Nov 2021, 21:10


dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sun 07 Nov 2021, 13:05

Robert Baloh: "Havana-syndromet svarer til mønstret for massepsykogen lidelse – men det betyder ikke, at symptomerne ikke er virkelige" (Skeptica.dk, Nov 6, 2021)
https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=10746

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MBY
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by MBY » Tue 09 Nov 2021, 10:16

Ja, det är något som förvisso är självklart för medkännande skeptiker, men som ändå kanske inte alla har klart för sig: även psykosomatiska besvär och ren inbillan utgör verkliga obehag. Samma med elallergiker o.dyl. Lidandet är riktigt. Det är förklaringsmodellen som är fel.

Nu har jag förvisso inte följt "havannasyndromet" på ett tag, så jag kan inte säga om det är inbillningssjuka eller någon verklig extern omständighet bakom men det verkar som de flesta medierna är rätt återhållsamma och ger intrycket av att det faktiskt är ESS, dvs "inbillan". Kan ju vara någon kombo förstås. Något jävulskap som lätt leder till epidemier av ESS. Självklart kan en antagonist försöka utnyttja människors förmåga till somatisering.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Tue 16 Nov 2021, 22:52

MBY wrote:
Tue 09 Nov 2021, 10:16
Ja, det är något som förvisso är självklart för medkännande skeptiker, men som ändå kanske inte alla har klart för sig: även psykosomatiska besvär och ren inbillan utgör verkliga obehag. Samma med elallergiker o.dyl. Lidandet är riktigt. Det är förklaringsmodellen som är fel.

Nu har jag förvisso inte följt "havannasyndromet" på ett tag, så jag kan inte säga om det är inbillningssjuka eller någon verklig extern omständighet bakom men det verkar som de flesta medierna är rätt återhållsamma och ger intrycket av att det faktiskt är ESS, dvs "inbillan". Kan ju vara någon kombo förstås. Något jävulskap som lätt leder till epidemier av ESS. Självklart kan en antagonist försöka utnyttja människors förmåga till somatisering.
1) For the most part the mainstream media in particular hasn't been återhållsamma. Even though there is no weapon, no actually detected and measured microwave (at least none that we have heard of), and no actual attacker, many journalists simply report whatever their CIA sources or U.S. politicians tell them. Most journalists don't do investigative journalism (= most journalists don't get paid to do investigative journalism). So many Americans think that there can be no doubt that American diplomats (not CIA agents) and their families were attacked by a microwave (or directed energy, whatever) weapon that caused actual physical brain damage and that the attackers were Russians (or sometimes Chinese). So the only thing that needs to be done at this point is retaliation. Preferably as soon as possible.
See the quotations in these two posts:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13652826#post13652826
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13654393#post13654393

2) You are right about the combo, which is very often found in cases of mass psychogenic illness. The experts think so, too. You have a group of people, some of whom may feel ill for whatever reason and then something happens, which they imagine might be the cause.
a) In the case of the Danish HPV-vaccinated girls, some of them did have actual maladies, and for whatever reason, they imagined that the vaccine might have harmed them, even though some of them had actually complained about their symptoms before they were vaccinated. Then they meet online where other girls read their stories and begin to fear that they, too, may have been harmed by the vaccine. From then on, it spreads much the same way yawning spreads in a group of people.
b) You can even have what I would describe as 'mass psychogenic illness by proxy'. The story is well-known: Parents of autistic children became convinced that the autism was caused by the MMR vaccines (measles, mumps, rubella), which children usually get when they are about the age when autism is diagnosed. The quack Andrew Wakefield helped spread that particular idea.

However, the symptoms of autism are pretty specific, so the fear didn't really spread the way the 'Havana Syndrome' was spread. The 'Havana Syndrome' symptoms are much less specific: headaches, nausea, dizziness, sleep disorders. Some of the 'Havana Syndrome' sufferers had also had symptoms before the alleged attacks, for instance the people with hearing problems.

However, one very recent thing has given me hope that there are still people in the U.S. government who are aware that they are dealing with mass psychogenic illness and not with an attack and that the people causing it are the ones who are trying to create a panic:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13649707#post13649707

The three posts I link to all contain links to other sources, but I have quoted and commented on the relevant parts of those sources.

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Wed 24 Nov 2021, 18:36

It used to be a CIA syndrome, but now NBC News has now found an FBI agent who thinks he has it, too, and he got it a long ago and far away from Havana:
FBI acknowledges some agents may have Havana Syndrome symptoms (NBC News, Nov 24, 2021)
In an email last month, an FBI official told a former agent who had reported possible brain injury symptoms that "unfortunately, the FBI is not authorized to give any medical advice and there are not any medical programs in place for current and/or retired employees." The agent began suffering migraines and dizziness about a decade ago after a stint overseas in a country near Russia.
(...)
NBC News reported in 2018 that U.S. intelligence officials considered Russia a leading suspect in what some of them assess to have been deliberate attacks on diplomats and CIA officers overseas. But in the nearly three years since then, the spy agencies have not uncovered enough evidence to pinpoint the cause or the culprit of the health incidents. U.S. officials cannot say for sure that they were intentional attacks or even that they were the result of human activity.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fbi-acknowledges-agents-may-havana-syndrome-symptoms-rcna6504

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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by strutfus » Wed 24 Nov 2021, 20:37

Sabine Hossenfelder (teoretisk fysiker) bloggade om möjliga förklaringar till Havannsyndromet i helgen: https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/11/the-3-best-explanations-for-havana.html

dann
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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Wed 24 Nov 2021, 21:49

Yes. She is usually very good, but in this case she seems to have missed the articles and books by Robert Baloh and Robert Bartholomew.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13660033#post13660033

Sabine Hossenfelder is a physicist, not a physician, and she has bought into the idea that people suffering from 'Havana Syndrome' have actual brain damage and actual hearing loss. She should read neurologist Robert Baloh's article:
Havana syndrome fits the pattern of psychosomatic illness – but that doesn’t mean the symptoms aren’t real (The Conversation, Sep 30, 2021)
https://theconversation.com/havana-syndrome-fits-the-pattern-of-psychosomatic-illness-but-that-doesnt-mean-the-symptoms-arent-real-167275

This transcription of an excerpt from an interview with medical sociologist Robert Bartholomew is short and to the point:
And people say to me, they say, 'You don't know what you are talking about: concussion-like symptoms, white matter tract changes, brain damage! That can't possibly be mass psychogenic illness!'

But that's not what happened. The white matter tract changes never happened!
In December of 2017, information was leaked to the media that doctors examining a number of Havana Syndrome patients had discovered the significant white matter tract changes to their brains. This was big news, and for the next year, there was headlines about doctors finding brain anomalies in many of the diplomats. And then nearly a year later, in early 2018, the study came out, and in 21 patients only three had white matter tract changes. Two were mild, one was moderate.

If you walk down the streets of Melbourne or Sidney today and randomly pick 21 people, that's exactly what you would expect to find because white matter tract changes are common in everything from migraines to depression, to normal aging. So the claims of white matter tract changes are a myth as were the claims of brain damage. There was reports leaked that they had brain damage. When the studies came out, they were inconclusive.

And lastly, you have the study of hearing loss: In 2018, the results of a forthcoming study of 25 U.S. diplomats were leaked to the media. It was plain that about a third of the patients had hearing loss. This was reported for months and months and months in 2018. Once again the headlines: 'Diplomats suffering from hearing loss.' But when the study was published that December of 2018, they found that only two of the subjects had hearing loss. And both of them had hearing loss before they went to Cuba. And what had happened was: When they were interviewed, the subjects had expressed disbelief that they had hearing loss, but when they were given a standard hearing test, the others returned normal results.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13616228#post13616228
It is the argument I see repeated all over the internet all the time: 'But what about the brain damage? They have actual, physiological brain damage! You don't get that from mass psychogenic illness.'
But they don't! You also don't get actual hearing loss psychogenically, but the people with hearing loss had started to lose their hearing before going to Cuba. (So had I, by the way ...)

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Re: "Ljudattackerna" mot diplomater på Kuba.

Post by dann » Sat 04 Dec 2021, 08:53

Biden's miracle commissions come up with nothing

Instead of simply repeating what their official sources in the CIA and the HAVANA Act Senate commission tell them, the New York Times got some inside information that goes against the grain. The NYT is paywalled, but I wrote about their new article, Review Finds No Answers to Mystery of Havana Syndrome, here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13670650#post13670650

Politico has also excelled in repeating what CIA director Burns, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, and politicians like Marco Rubio, Susan Collins and Jeanne Shaheen tell them, but now they have a hard time reconciling this with what the NYT article describes. More here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13671489#post13671489
A blow to the 'directed-energy' Havana Syndrome case, indeed!

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